Comments on: PHP - Where exactly do you sit? http://www.melbournechapter.net/wordpress/programming-languages/php/cman/2006/11/02/php-where-exactly-do-you-sit/ web application development with popular technologies Fri, 29 Aug 2008 19:15:58 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.5 by: melbourne chapter » Adobe FDS2 - US$20K http://www.melbournechapter.net/wordpress/programming-languages/php/cman/2006/11/02/php-where-exactly-do-you-sit/#comment-10241 Tue, 07 Nov 2006 23:18:47 +0000 http://www.melbournechapter.net/wordpress/programming-languages/php/cman/2006/11/02/php-where-exactly-do-you-sit/#comment-10241 [...] PHP as a thin layer provides great database layering, with a nice framework AMF-PHP which could handle basic output to flex. This framework works great, but still has around 40-50ms class instantiation cost per request (which may be considered pretty low, and can be tuned with APC). Making the move to a JEE environment means that we can handle database queries through a JDBC environment, bringing JDBC equivalent database into PHP means more overhead, and unless you go that path it makes it more difficult to make your whole project scalable. But discussing PHP and JEE performance is not the point of this article, we are talking about alternatives. OpenAMF is a JEE alternate to the Flash Data Services offered by Adobe. I found a nice little introduction to openAMF with this article. Although a slightly bloated introduction regarding JEE, PHP and ActionScript it is still relevant to conversations we have been starting on this blog, such as “Where does PHP really sit?” One of the cumbersome of using Java is the relatively complex setup of Java applications, with different steps based on the container. J2EE helps on this, exposing a more standard framework to follow for web developers. Also Java is not a common shared hosting offer, and this make sense because the power of java and his multithread run shines in big applications or when a lot of traffic is expected, due also to the live of servlets in memory. Usually little-medium applications fits fine in more straightforward languages like PHP. So freelancers developers not involved in big corporations are not usually faced to Java, and it’s a shame, because it’s a great language. But the grow of ActionScript from AS1 to AS2 force coders to write in a more Java-like (or should say OOP-like) way, so Java seems more familiar to them. And AS3 will reinforce this being a really truly class based language (in fact, not compatible with previous versions of the Flash Player) All of this make the jump to Java less heavy for actionscript coders, at least with Java in relationship with Flash. [...] […] PHP as a thin layer provides great database layering, with a nice framework AMF-PHP which could handle basic output to flex. This framework works great, but still has around 40-50ms class instantiation cost per request (which may be considered pretty low, and can be tuned with APC). Making the move to a JEE environment means that we can handle database queries through a JDBC environment, bringing JDBC equivalent database into PHP means more overhead, and unless you go that path it makes it more difficult to make your whole project scalable. But discussing PHP and JEE performance is not the point of this article, we are talking about alternatives. OpenAMF is a JEE alternate to the Flash Data Services offered by Adobe. I found a nice little introduction to openAMF with this article. Although a slightly bloated introduction regarding JEE, PHP and ActionScript it is still relevant to conversations we have been starting on this blog, such as “Where does PHP really sit?” One of the cumbersome of using Java is the relatively complex setup of Java applications, with different steps based on the container. J2EE helps on this, exposing a more standard framework to follow for web developers. Also Java is not a common shared hosting offer, and this make sense because the power of java and his multithread run shines in big applications or when a lot of traffic is expected, due also to the live of servlets in memory. Usually little-medium applications fits fine in more straightforward languages like PHP. So freelancers developers not involved in big corporations are not usually faced to Java, and it’s a shame, because it’s a great language. But the grow of ActionScript from AS1 to AS2 force coders to write in a more Java-like (or should say OOP-like) way, so Java seems more familiar to them. And AS3 will reinforce this being a really truly class based language (in fact, not compatible with previous versions of the Flash Player) All of this make the jump to Java less heavy for actionscript coders, at least with Java in relationship with Flash. […]

]]> by: Cameron Manderson http://www.melbournechapter.net/wordpress/programming-languages/php/cman/2006/11/02/php-where-exactly-do-you-sit/#comment-9288 Fri, 03 Nov 2006 03:18:45 +0000 http://www.melbournechapter.net/wordpress/programming-languages/php/cman/2006/11/02/php-where-exactly-do-you-sit/#comment-9288 His main argument was simply PHP's lack of multi-threading languages and talking about stepping up to .NET/JEE. But as this article talks about, we are looking at small-medium applications. Often the speeds are affected through the slowest parts of the system, hard-disk calls and DB calls, as well as the quality of your coding (with datastructures and algorithms, such as iterators vs hashmaps etc) and your network. Having multi-threading means that you need to have an extremely good knowledge of threads to make a useful increase in speed, having dual core does not mean that you get double the speed, you have to be able to break apart processes and manage the memory (eg, process one processes, waits for process 2 to finish its bit for the next part of memory anyway). Plus scaling applications involves not only software BUT hardware. Pick up a book on the Google story and you will learn quickly that you can see dramatic 'performance' increases with cheaper hardware through a load balanced scenario. Google may only be able to perform 30 queries a second per box, but because of the network and load balanced performance we see lightning fast queries. The comment that PHP is just a simple scripting language with no OOP in mind - has - changed in PHP5 and will evolve in PHP6. Due to the uptake of PHP4 and the amount of users still relying on extremely poorly written PHP4 apps (namely OSCommerce) it has caused slow uptake of PHP5. Also there is a lot of talk that you are NOT kidding yourself for enterprise development - There is a lot of people getting behind it, like oracle etc for development. Also view this article written many years ago: http://articles.techrepublic.com.com/5100-22-1058656.html Enterprise applications involve many aspects of an application, choosing your tools is vital. Obviously the lack of Frameworks is something that I have highlighted as what I see as some of the main reasons why it hasn't gone further towards Enterprise. All signs are pointing towards stable formation of frameworks and partnerships with top players of IT. His main argument was simply PHP’s lack of multi-threading languages and talking about stepping up to .NET/JEE. But as this article talks about, we are looking at small-medium applications. Often the speeds are affected through the slowest parts of the system, hard-disk calls and DB calls, as well as the quality of your coding (with datastructures and algorithms, such as iterators vs hashmaps etc) and your network.

Having multi-threading means that you need to have an extremely good knowledge of threads to make a useful increase in speed, having dual core does not mean that you get double the speed, you have to be able to break apart processes and manage the memory (eg, process one processes, waits for process 2 to finish its bit for the next part of memory anyway). Plus scaling applications involves not only software BUT hardware. Pick up a book on the Google story and you will learn quickly that you can see dramatic ‘performance’ increases with cheaper hardware through a load balanced scenario. Google may only be able to perform 30 queries a second per box, but because of the network and load balanced performance we see lightning fast queries.

The comment that PHP is just a simple scripting language with no OOP in mind - has - changed in PHP5 and will evolve in PHP6. Due to the uptake of PHP4 and the amount of users still relying on extremely poorly written PHP4 apps (namely OSCommerce) it has caused slow uptake of PHP5.

Also there is a lot of talk that you are NOT kidding yourself for enterprise development - There is a lot of people getting behind it, like oracle etc for development.

Also view this article written many years ago:
http://articles.techrepublic.com.com/5100-22-1058656.html

Enterprise applications involve many aspects of an application, choosing your tools is vital.

Obviously the lack of Frameworks is something that I have highlighted as what I see as some of the main reasons why it hasn’t gone further towards Enterprise. All signs are pointing towards stable formation of frameworks and partnerships with top players of IT.

]]> by: Richard Lee http://www.melbournechapter.net/wordpress/programming-languages/php/cman/2006/11/02/php-where-exactly-do-you-sit/#comment-9277 Fri, 03 Nov 2006 00:14:29 +0000 http://www.melbournechapter.net/wordpress/programming-languages/php/cman/2006/11/02/php-where-exactly-do-you-sit/#comment-9277 Here's another interesting article on this debate http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/programming-and-development/?p=85 Here’s another interesting article on this debate

http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/programming-and-development/?p=85

]]> by: Richard Lee http://www.melbournechapter.net/wordpress/programming-languages/php/cman/2006/11/02/php-where-exactly-do-you-sit/#comment-9276 Fri, 03 Nov 2006 00:09:28 +0000 http://www.melbournechapter.net/wordpress/programming-languages/php/cman/2006/11/02/php-where-exactly-do-you-sit/#comment-9276 Thanks Cam that's a real informative article ;) The fact is PHP was designed to be a simple scripted programming language much like ASP (but better). It wasn't designed with OOP in mind and it doesn't come with a nice cosy framework like .Net. These things have only come about in recent years in an attempt to make PHP a viable open-source alternative to .Net and similar serverside technologies. IMHO you are kidding yourself if you ever thought of using PHP for enterprise development. From what I've seen big enterprise look after big enterprise - which is why open-source will always struggle in the corporate market. Thanks Cam that’s a real informative article ;)

The fact is PHP was designed to be a simple scripted programming language much like ASP (but better). It wasn’t designed with OOP in mind and it doesn’t come with a nice cosy framework like .Net. These things have only come about in recent years in an attempt to make PHP a viable open-source alternative to .Net and similar serverside technologies.

IMHO you are kidding yourself if you ever thought of using PHP for enterprise development. From what I’ve seen big enterprise look after big enterprise - which is why open-source will always struggle in the corporate market.

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